Ep.3 Chuck Hall | Fireplace & Chimney Services | Washington D.C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlhYUs_rbb4

Episode 3

Nodirkhon: Today's guest is Chuck Hall, a master chimney and fireplace specialist and business owner with over thirty-five years of hands-on experience. Chuck is the President of the Mid-Atlantic Chimney Association and President Emeritus of the Chimney Safety Institute of America. He holds a degree in communications from the University of Kansas and is F.I.R.E. Certified inspector. His company has been trusted to service some of the nation's most critical fireplaces, including those at the United States Supreme Court, the National Cathedral, and all the fireplaces at Camp David.

Please welcome Chuck Hall.

Chuck Hall: Pleasure to be here, Nodir. [00:01:00] Thanks for inviting me.

Nodirkhon: Pleasure to have you here.

Discussing Latest Fireplace and Chimney Regulations

Nodirkhon: The first thing I would like to discuss with you on this podcast is related to the latest regulations impacting the fireplace and chimney service business. NFPA 211 just went through another update cycle, including the debate over whether a Level 2 inspection can be limited to the flues the customer asks for.

From your perspective, does that change make homeowners safer or more exposed?

Chuck Hall: They're safer. It's about identifying where their issues are in the entire system. [00:02:00] If you're only going after the fireplace that they asked for, and there are two other fireplaces in the chimney itself—because a chimney can have multiple flues, which are passageways to additional fireplaces—and you're not looking at those, then unfortunately you're not doing a complete job. But at the same time, you want to get paid for that extra work. So it's a catch-22. But when you're talking about live fire in the middle of a living room, that's not the time to get cheap or to cut corners. So I say, look at them all. Do everything that you're supposed to do. Let's make sure that we're providing safety for the client. They're the ones that entrusted us with their home and called us to come out. So [00:03:00] let's do a good job.

Nodirkhon: Right, but continuing with the regulations on paper—

Common Code Violations in Chimney Construction

Nodirkhon: The 2024 IRC Chapter 10 is very clear about how chimneys and fireplaces should be built, but in your opinion, in the real world, where are you still seeing the biggest code violations or shortcuts?

Chuck Hall: Well, they're everywhere, but where we can see them the most is in the type of mortar that is used in between the terracotta clay flue tiles that are used to construct most masonry fireplaces. They're supposed to be using a non-water-soluble refractory cement, [00:04:00] which is heat-rated, in between the two-foot tiles. And a lot of the times they're just using the same mortar that they use for laying the bricks in between the flue tiles. And unfortunately, that's where a lot of fractures and breaches are found when we run the cameras up inside. Other places where we discover wood inside the fireplace—and there shouldn't be—is when we're doing a more complete demo of that fireplace in order to install a new unit. And that's where we find wood in places where there shouldn't be. [00:05:00]

Modern Tools for Chimney Inspections

Nodirkhon: What do you think about the modern tools for inspection? Are they helpful in detecting those kinds of violations?

Chuck Hall: The first one, which is the terracotta clay flue tiles and the mortar in between—yes. The modern way is using a camera, and you insert the camera from the bottom. Most of the time you can from the bottom and it goes up. It's basically a colonoscopy for your fireplace flue. You go up, you can see all of the flue tiles. If you run into a problem and something is seriously wrong, you can go down from the top, but most of the time it's inspection from the bottom and the homeowner has an opportunity to sit with you, right in front of the fireplace, and [00:06:00] watch the scan as it occurs.

Insurance and Chimney Work: Navigating High-Risk Perceptions

Nodirkhon: Speaking further about those inspections, I know that insurers see chimney work as high risk and price it accordingly. How, in your opinion, is insurance pressure changing the way reputable companies document inspections and talk to customers?

Chuck Hall: I don't find that it's an issue. I think a lot of business owners do what other business owners and corporations do when the costs of running your business increase—with insurance costs, workers' comp, general liability, etc. When that goes up, because we're running around on roofs, we pass that along to the client. That's just the way it goes. If you want to do business with a [00:07:00] reputable firm, sometimes it costs a little bit more than working with someone who's running it out of the back of their pickup truck or their basement.

Nodirkhon: This is also another question or kind of observation that I have.

Chimney Scams and Certification Guarantees

Nodirkhon: You probably heard that in Connecticut there was an issue about those chimney scams—fake damage or door-to-door inspectors. Do you see this kind of challenge emerging in other states beyond the example I gave in Connecticut?

Chuck Hall: One hundred percent. It's in every trade. It's not just in fireplaces and chimneys. It's in roofing. It's in HVAC. It's in electrical—all of the trades. There are [00:08:00] unscrupulous individuals who are trying to cut corners at the expense of homeowners and their most important investment, which is their home. We had a company here many, many years ago, and they were horrible. They were actually caught in a couple of sting operations put on by individuals and local news stations. I have not heard in this area of that type of scam or those activities going on in this market lately.

Nodirkhon: This CSIA certification—is it sufficient? And given that regulators and insurance companies mention it now, what does that [00:09:00] certification really guarantee, and what doesn't it guarantee?

Chuck Hall: What it guarantees is that you've got the first level of training and exposure to the chimney industry. It is the first certification; it's the beginning. It guarantees that at least there's been some sort of training. That's all it guarantees. It doesn't mean that they're an expert. There are 126 fireplace- and chimney-related companies in the Washington DC Metro, and there are some people that only have one certification, but they've been doing the work for twenty-five years and they're craftsmen—they're wonderful. They've kept their company small, they've decided to [00:10:00] get one certification, they don't find the need to get any more, and they've been working for twenty-five years. They're wonderful craftsmen. I know some of these people. And there are other people, like myself, who've decided to build a bigger company and employ more people and help more customers. And it's my job to make sure that the people that we send out in the field are trained. They start out with one certification and they get additional training—they go to classes and get additional training by being in the field with other people that are more senior to them. It's again a little big-dog, little-dog training, and they get training by going to classes that are offered by associations like the Mid-Atlantic Chimney Association that I'm president of right now. Our mission [00:11:00] is to provide education to the chimney professional in the surrounding states so that more education is going to be better for all the clients that are in our markets.

Nodirkhon: For service related to fireplace and chimney—be it sweeping or retrofitting and so on—is there an obligation to ask for this certificate, or do they do it through the insurance company? What's the process?

Chuck Hall: Well, to be perfectly frank, just because you've taken a class or you've completed a certification doesn't mean that you have the experience and knowledge [00:12:00] to perform that service. It just means you've taken the class. I mean, caveat emptor—let the buyer beware.

The Importance of Due Diligence in Hiring

Contractors

Chuck Hall: It's not just our industry. It's the same thing with heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. You call someone out—"My air conditioning has stopped." It's the same thing. You call a company and hopefully you do your research on the company. Google Reviews is one way of determining whether the company has a good reputation. Asking your friends—what are their experiences with it? It's for every single trade, whether you're replacing faucets in your bathroom or you're having someone come out and sweep your chimney, or you're thinking about converting from wood to gas or [00:13:00] gas back to wood. You must do your due diligence. The same as taking your car in to have it repaired. Just because it says that the mechanics are ASE certified doesn't mean they're the best mechanics that there are. How about this: What do you call someone who was last in their medical class? Answer: doctor. It's the same thing. You must do your due diligence whenever you're picking a tradesman or you're going to spend your money with anybody to have anything repaired or built for you. It's not just related to a certification that they have. That's just the beginning.

Nodirkhon: [00:14:00] I wonder—how big is the trust problem in your industry? Can you fully rely on Google Reviews, for instance?

Chuck Hall: So I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. Like I said before, you must do your due diligence with any sort of work that you want to have done on your home. Google Reviews is one way. Checking to make sure that they have a certification. Asking friends and neighbors for recommendations. I mean, that's why Angie's List used to be so good back at the very beginning when it was a paid service. You had to be a member and you paid eighty dollars a year or whatever it was, and then you had Angie's List, [00:15:00] and there was a vetting process. Right now there are other publications out there, like Five Star Rating and others, where there's actual vetting that occurs with previous customers. So I don't think it's just Google Reviews. I think it's a host of things to protect yourself—that you're picking the right contractor to work on your home.

Nodirkhon: You just mentioned that Angie's List was good back in those times. What made it worse, or what has changed?

Chuck Hall: Well, there's not as many people and there's not as many business owners using it as there were back then. Because when you work with Angie's List from the contractor side, you get leads from them, and the leads back in the day when people were serious and they were paying for the service—[00:16:00] you got good leads. Now you don't get good leads. And there's a lot of contractors that have stopped working with Angie's List because you don't get the qualified—a higher rating of qualified—leads from a business standpoint.

Nodirkhon: So it's kind of like you're getting leads, you have to pay for them, but they are not really converting to good customers or to good orders.

Chuck Hall: Exactly. So you're going to advertise with them and pay, and you're not getting qualified leads. But that's—I'm just saying from a personal standpoint, for me, that was one of the reasons I stepped away from paying Angie's List [00:17:00] as a customer on the contractor side.

Nodirkhon: I see.

Future of Chimneys in an All-Electric World

Nodirkhon: Another trend that I noticed is that states like New York are putting out a lot of regulations related to moving to all-electric new buildings from 2026. So when you look ten, fifteen years out, do you see fewer chimneys or just different kinds of venting and safety?

Chuck Hall: So that's a great point. It's happening here locally with Maryland and the District of Columbia, where in certain instances in new construction it is only electric. And [00:18:00] that's coming up. In this market there is a tremendous amount of open fireplaces and gas fireplaces—wood-burning and gas—that are already in use, that are already built. So in new construction in ten or fifteen years, all being electric—I think that you might be right. Now, does that mean that they're going to make the people that already have gas fireplaces and wood-burning fireplaces retrofit? I know they do that in Europe, in some European countries, but I don't think they're going to go for that here in the United States. I don't believe they're going to start retrofitting. So like I said before, right now in 2025 there's roughly 126 [00:19:00] fireplace- and chimney-related companies. Some of them are part-time—only during busy times of the year, September through January. Maybe they're working; maybe they do some other kind of work before that. But there are also a fair amount of full-service fireplace and chimney companies that operate all year round. And there's going to be plenty of work for those 126 fireplace- and chimney-related companies just with the amount of homes that have already been built, that are already retrofitted with fireplaces that are wood-burning or gas-burning.

Nodirkhon: That's also what I noticed—that it's not just about sweeping, but those regulations also actually give you more business in terms of retrofitting and making those [00:20:00] changes and implementations. Which I believe might—

Chuck Hall: In new construction—sorry to interrupt—but in new construction for the past, I would be guessing, I would say twenty years, in new construction in order to get the Energy Star rating you must install direct-vent gas fireplaces in this market. And direct-vent gas fireplaces are all over the place in new construction. And those units, although they don't require to be swept because they don't create creosote, which is just unburned fuel from wood-burning—[00:21:00] they do need to be maintained every couple of years or so because it is a mechanical system that uses gas and there are times where they are not efficient, where they won't light, where they won't stay lit. So there are companies like mine and many others who service gas fireplaces as well as wood-burning fireplaces.

Nodirkhon: Thank you for highlighting this. You definitely know better what kind of demands are on the market currently.

Chuck Hall's Journey: From Radio to Chimney Services

Nodirkhon: I'm glad that you pointed this out. But let's move back to how it all started. Take me back to the beginning when you just started out with your company, [00:22:00] providing fireplace and chimney services. What first drew you to become a business owner in this field?

Chuck Hall: I was selling advertising time for a radio station in Washington, D.C.—easy 97.1. And through one of the women that I met at an advertising agency, I met a young man who was actually older than I was—he was four years older than I was—and he had a home service company with an older gentleman. His name was Winston Whitney, and they had a fireplace and chimney company. They had a gutter installation and repair company, and they had a residential window-washing company, and they serviced all of the Washington, D.C. metro. And as I got to know him, I learned more about their business and I learned more about home service businesses. And then the radio industry [00:23:00] became deregulated. So instead of one radio station, one TV station owned by ABC Broadcasting, one TV station, one radio station owned by the National Broadcasting Corporation (NBC), etc., they allowed many radio stations and TV stations to be owned by one company. So they deregulated it and I moved up to another radio station, WTOP. And I didn't have a good experience with the management there. It was very bad culture. And so I told my friend Marty, who was working—he was one of the owners with Winston Whitney of the home service company—and I said, "This is bad." And he said, "Come work for us. Come learn. I'll give you the time off that you need to go find a new sales job." And I said, "Wonderful." And I went to work with them and I learned about window washing and gutter installation and gutter [00:24:00] repair and some chimney work. And a couple of months later I decided—I was offered the opportunity to get involved with their company, but only in Virginia. So it was kind of like a franchise. They would help teach me and bring me along. I would work only in Virginia and they would work in Maryland and D.C. So I received additional training and mentorship from both of them. And back then it was mostly sweeping and very few repairs, and they didn't have the kind of training that's available now. So I made a lot of mistakes and I had to learn the hard way from the school of hard knocks with running a [00:25:00] business. I wouldn't say that I was unsuccessful my first twenty-four years, but I would also say that I wasn't as successful as I could have been had I sought out more training and—if more training and classes were available—because we're talking about 1989 when I started. So there you have it. It's just the same old story of the school of hard knocks. And people right now—we have a wonderful group of new young entrepreneurs that have started taking classes and are getting in business to run a business, which is what I did. That's what happened after having dinners and lunches with these two gentlemen, Marty and Winston, and [00:26:00] learning, "Wow, this is what it's like to run a small business. Yes, I'd like to run a small business that is in the home services sector." And now I think it's the most wonderful thing to be able to operate your own business, make your own schedule. And now in my advanced age of sixty-one, I'm teaching other people how to start and scale a small business in the home services sector the best way. How do you do it? How do you become profitable? What are some of the things that you should think about, different than the way I did it? So I'm trying to give back. And the more you give, the more you get.

Nodirkhon: Glad you shared that. And do you see—you mentioned those new kind of entrepreneurs—

Challenges and Opportunities in the Chimney Industry

Nodirkhon: Is there enough people coming to this industry? Is there interest from young people to work in the fireplace and chimney industry? What's the outlook?

Chuck Hall: It's one hundred percent. There are more than enough of these young entrepreneurs that [00:28:00] are learning about fireplaces and chimneys. And they're also adding additional ancillary services to go along with fireplaces and chimneys. So chimney sweeping is one—that's a service. And then there's masonry repairs, and then masonry repairs on the chimneys can lead to maybe doing masonry repairs or installations with flatwork like patios. A lot of them do that—patios and retaining walls. And there's all kinds of things that they're doing: learning about dryer vents, the installation of dryer vents in new construction, or just the servicing of the dryer vents, cleaning them out every so often depending on the amount of use. Five kids and two dogs—you're going to have to clean your dryer vents every year. Also air duct cleaning—commercial air duct cleaning, residential air duct cleaning. So there's a lot of ancillary services, home services, that go hand in hand with fireplaces and chimneys where you can make a living, build a career, build a business, and send your kids to college and enjoy what you do at the same time.

Nodirkhon: Interesting how you mentioned that things are [00:29:00] interconnected—you start with chimney, it leads to masonry, it could lead to doing something with walls. Have you thought about this or dreamed about expanding to some kind of a general—

Chuck Hall: So that is one of the ways that I chose not to go. But there are some people that are doing it, and it is a lot less work in some respects than what I've chosen to do. So I've chosen to employ people, pay insurance, go that direction, and I've got other friends in other markets that have chosen to be the general contractor and [00:30:00] manage projects that way and just sub out all of the work. I think you can do it either way. I think that there's difficulties and challenges with either way of doing it. I've never done the full general contracting. I work as a sub with a lot of general contractors on the residential side, and then we do commercial work as subcontractors for the very large general contractors that are building resorts and condominiums and health care for the elderly. And we work as subcontractors for them. But no, at this age I'm going to stick with what I know well, and I will be a subcontractor for [00:31:00] the general contractors.

Nodirkhon: All right. It's amazing how you moved from radio advertising to a very different industry. And what was the misconception you had about this profession before you started that turned out to be completely wrong?

Chuck Hall: I was like a lot of other people. I knew that we had a fireplace at home, and then we had a fireplace at our beach house. But the fireplace at the beach house—we never used it because I was never up there during the winter time. I was there in the summer when it was hot. And the fireplace at our home—my father made the fires. I had to bring in wood, etc. I didn't know anything about it. And I didn't know [00:32:00] that fireplaces and chimneys need to have maintenance because I wasn't a homeowner until later. I wasn't a homeowner actually until I was already in the chimney and fireplace business. So I wasn't aware that there was a chimney sweeping and fireplace installation business. And people say that to me when I'm introduced to them or I introduce myself at networking events—they say, "Wow, I didn't even know that they were still sweeping fireplaces and cleaning them." And I said, "Absolutely. Did you know that at the US Capitol building there's sixty-two wood-burning fireplaces there?" There's wood-burning fireplaces everywhere. But I didn't know that. I wasn't aware. So I was uninformed. [00:33:00]

Nodirkhon: All this time, what's the part of your job that you still get excited about? What do you love about your work?

Chuck Hall: Well, back when I was out in the field, I loved to help people. I loved to help people that had a fireplace or chimney that wasn't working properly. I liked to do the work. I like to tear things apart and put them back together, and then look at my work and say, "Yes, we did that." Myself and another person or myself and two other people—whatever we did. If we're putting a new gas fireplace in or we are restoring an old wood-burning fireplace that wasn't working, that was dangerous, and we fixed it. There's something about doing manual labor and then looking at what you've [00:34:00] done. It's the same thing when you're working on your own condominium or your own house and you say, "Wow, we changed the paint. We redid the roof. We redid the kitchen." And you did it yourself and it took a long time. Maybe you redid a bathroom. And it's just the satisfaction of doing the work. In my current position, where I am now, I'm bringing people along. I'm hiring people and training people and putting them in contact with other ways to gain knowledge and experience in the fireplace and chimney industry. And I'm helping them along the path to buy their first house, to get married, and have a career path. And that's what's exciting for me—when [00:35:00] someone comes to you and says, "Hey, I need you to write a letter because I'm buying my first house." And I'm like, "That's fantastic." So that's the cool part. It's like having a bunch of small kids and watching them succeed and you had a hand in that. So I get jazzed up about that. I like it. And then there's the other side, which is running a small business with employees can be also frustrating, because they're human beings and they're imperfect—just like I'm imperfect. So when great things are happening and people are succeeding and buying houses and building families, that's a good feeling for me.

Nodirkhon: Really wonderful. And I liked how you compared when you were in the field with your current position and how that has changed. If I understood correctly, it's now more the human side of it—be it family, be it company—more dealing with people. But you mentioned the frustration sometimes, and this is understandable. Do you see there's some kind of challenge which you would like to solve but is still not tackled?

Chuck Hall: In what way? I want to give you what you want. Are you talking about as a business owner—what is still left on my to-do list? What do I want to do? Is that what you mean?

Nodirkhon: I mean as a business owner, related specifically to chimney and fireplace.

Chuck Hall: Well, yes. I would [00:37:00] really like to do some more commercial work with some of these larger general contractors. And get an opportunity to do more. I know that we're going to be working with the federal government on a job coming up next year that's already started, but not for us—and that's the Federal Reserve building. We're going to help restore ten fireplaces there. But I'd love the opportunity to do more commercial work in some of these larger buildings where they're putting in twenty-eight condominiums—twenty-eight units. And I'd love to get to put twenty-eight fireplaces in at one time and work with some of these larger general contractors. I'd like to do that. [00:38:00] I'd like to be able to do more of the finish work on the inside. So for instance, if you're going to install or take out an old gas fireplace and install a new one—if you were going to do it from the front side, you'd take down the mantel and you'd take down the marble or granite or whatever surround is there, and then you'd have to take out some drywall and remove the old venting and then install a new one. There are some companies that do that finish work as well, and we don't. We do all of the hard and difficult work and running of the gas lines, etc., behind the wall. And then we use contractors that are vetted and that we've worked with before that go in and do the finish work. It would be [00:39:00] nice. I've got lots of friends across the country that do it like I do it, and then some of them have some wonderful finish-work employees that do the finish work and install the mantels and do the trim and do the drywall and things like that. And we never really got into that part of the work. So yeah, I would like to get into more finish work. But it's all about finding the right people, and I haven't found the right people that I feel comfortable with.

Nodirkhon: You mean from those contractors who are dealing with those commercial projects?

Chuck Hall: No. Finding the right people to hire to do the finish work for me. But we have the right people to do the work for the general contractor. [00:40:00] It's just the general contractors—the larger general contractors—it's hard to come to an agreement on the correct price point. They would like to not pay the same amount that I would like to sell my service and install those fireplaces for. It's just difficult. They don't want to pay. And they find other contractors that they can get to do the work for a little bit less. And I'm more of a higher-end contractor where if you have a beautiful home, we can go in, tear everything apart, put it back together again, and not leave a mess. And that's kind of our niche. And [00:41:00] in commercial construction it's not our niche, but I see it as something that maybe I can get involved with at a greater scale. We do plenty of commercial work, but it's smaller one-sies, two-sies than not—twenty-eight or thirty or forty or fifty units at a time.

Nodirkhon: So if I understood correctly, it looks like there might be a shortage on one side and on the other side a lack of ways to find the right people to do that kind of job. Is that right?

Chuck Hall: Correct. So finding good people is hard. Number one—finding good people that are going to show up every day that already have skills or skills that can be developed. You can talk to any [00:42:00] home service contractor, any contractor out there, anybody that runs any sort of business that hires employees. Hiring right now is difficult. It's low unemployment and it's difficult. So if I were to be able to find a couple of wonderful carpenters and finish carpenter types, I would love that. They're just hard to find. On the other side, the commercial work—that's just finding the right general contractor who doesn't mind paying for a quality service and is not worried more about their bottom line than about having the best contractor to install all those fireplaces. That's why commercial work is different than residential work.

Nodirkhon: I was just wondering [00:43:00]—maybe it's a silly question—but in the DC area there are a lot of people being laid off, federal workers. Is there a chance that those people could be re-skilled, trained, and how much effort and time is required to prepare and make them at least capable of doing something related to fireplace work—maybe not very experienced obviously?

Chuck Hall: Never say never. There are people out there right now that would possibly look at a company like mine and consider working for us. Fireplaces and chimneys is [00:44:00] inherently dangerous—not because you're dealing with fire, because we really don't deal with fire itself like firemen, but we deal with the appliance and how it's installed. So when you're having fire it's safe. But it requires a lot of roof and scaffolding work, and that's inherently dangerous. And I can tell you because I've fallen off a roof once and I've jumped off a roof before, and I got injured on both of those occasions. And it's dangerous. And I'm not going to say it's a young man's game and it's only for men, because I've had a woman that worked for me in the field and she was wonderful. And I would hire more women that wanted to work in the field. But it's dangerous. So it's a certain type of person. And making the leap from [00:45:00] working for the government in that capacity and then being trained and coming to do the kind of labor that we do—it's possible, but not likely.

Nodirkhon: I see. All right.

Rapid Fire Questions with Chuck Hall

Nodirkhon: So now we approach the final part of this podcast, which is rapid-fire questions. I'll ask you simple, basic questions and I expect you to share from the top of your mind. Are you ready?

Chuck Hall: I'm ready.

Nodirkhon: Great. What is one business book, podcast, or online course that has had the most significant impact on how you [00:46:00] run your business?

Chuck Hall: Failing Forward by John Maxwell.

Nodirkhon: All right. If you could recommend one piece of software, app, or physical tool that you simply can't run your business without today, what would it be and why?

Chuck Hall: I think it would be QuickBooks. Because if you're not managing your finances properly, then you're going to be out of business.

Nodirkhon: Great. Moving to the next question—thinking about all the lessons you've learned, what's the single most valuable piece of advice you would give to someone just starting out in the fireplace and chimney business today?

Chuck Hall: Keep your overhead low.

Nodirkhon: Great. And finally, where can our listeners find you and learn more about [00:47:00] your work?

Chuck Hall: Well, they can do that at WinstonsServices.com. And there's an S in the middle—Winston's, plural, services, plural—dot com. That's our website. You can find us on Facebook—Winston's Chimney on Facebook. We'd love the opportunity to talk with anyone about converting from wood to gas or gas to wood, or just helping them with an issue with their gas fireplace or wood-burning fireplace.

Nodirkhon: Thank you. Today our guest was Chuck Hall on this episode of Irreplaceable by AI. Thank you for listening.